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12.12.2017, 05:52:54

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Autor Thema: Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?  (Gelesen 508 mal)

Offline Yosh

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Antw:Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?
« Antwort #15 am: 21.11.2017, 14:42:37 »
I was trying my best to not care enough to get baited by this post (troll bait?) but I guess that I have to represent OwNu in all of this.

The biggest problem and frustration here is that everyone actually hopes that one day the admins of this league will make a good decision.  You attempt to quote rules that are in a pdf file in german and claim that it is the universal truth.  I get that everyone has to start somewhere but for some reason common sense is lost throughout this process simply because of negligence.  I really cannot describe it as anything else.  Maybe this is because you are short staffed and have little time to do much from a support perspective.  Totally understandable but don't turn around and claim that every decision is universally "right".  There are times when you "enforce" rules that make no sense or rules that don't even exist in the first place.  You, yourself, have admitted that the rules haven't been touched since god knows when and that they need to be updated but i feel like that is less of a problem when compared to the fact that you entertain such outdated rules as "german league, german host" because that is technically in the rules.

Also i'd like to better understand what brought about this decision to allow regames for pg so that we can apply it to future matches since when ownu typically asks to play things out we get def losses due to there being "insufficient attempts to schedule" because we say "every day at 18" instead of specific dates when the players involved were literally online and streaming every day starting at 18 when they got home for several weeks but in a case where the other team fails to schedule or doesn't show up to a scheduled postponed match while trying to take defwins instead admins suddenly want games played out.  Don't get me wrong... this is a step in the right direction from your normal course of action but this is grossly inconsistent.  Especially when you consider the fact that several seasons ago due to lack of time from the other team they provided us with defwins and even created a ticket explaining the circumstances and you guys in your infinite wisdom reversed those points thus removing us from the playoffs. then after providing proof i got ignored until the playoffs started simply because no one wanted to reverse an obviously wrong decision. It definitely gives teams the feeling that you are either favoring certain teams or screwing over certain teams. You can try to say that this isn't the case as much as you want but you really need to follow this up with some action showing this in order for people to believe it. That is really the only advice that I can give you as someone who was an admin for multiple leagues for many years.  Honestly the amount of defwins that I see from season to season is sad and some of the decisions that are made are even worse.  It is so obvious to tell what teams / people are trying to use the rules to manipulate the situation to their advantage vs people that are simply trying to play the game while using the rules as a guide line in order to accomplish that goal.  The amount of catering towards the former group of people over the years is alarming and i really wonder whether the admins actually realize what is going on. I guess if admins don't care to get to know the teams / players that participate.  Something as simple as a policy that has the admins reach out to BOTH teams in order to discuss anything that requires defwins would go a long way.  With the current way of doing things You are simply enabling this type of behavior and then wondering why this same topic comes up so often.

Back in my day the only way that defwins happened is if a player forfeits because they do not want to play the games out at all. If there is some effort being made on either side to get a series played then admins should try their best to guide teams towards that goal.  Obviously there is a hard cut off of the end of the season / a few days before the playoffs.  If admins want to penalize teams then that is exactly what penalty points are for.  Admin decisions should do as little as possible to manipulate the clan war results. #grandpayosh

Offline MartialSpirit

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Antw:Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?
« Antwort #16 am: 22.11.2017, 01:08:19 »
- I did ask for defwins and I told you to give them. You just never listened and didn't give them. Why did you not give me the defwin? That's my question: Because it's pG? Or because the rules don't apply to everyone? Say something about that, enlighten me and clarify your position of "neutrality".

- Good that our scores were deleted. Competition will be fair now, at least among the remaining teams.

- How long you have been in a league doesn't prove transparency and integrity, it just proves you have been there all that time. Please find another argument or apologize like a gentleman would do.

- I will stick to the rules, and I will be contacting Changer if I see something irregular the next seasons. This time I know someone is overseeing your actions and I'm more comfortable with playing the league next season.

Bottomline: Communicate with players and managers before bulldozing everybody while showing your admin credential, that doesn't make you any better.
« Letzte Änderung: 22.11.2017, 01:21:01 von MartialSpirit »

Offline Changer

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Antw:Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?
« Antwort #17 am: 22.11.2017, 02:12:51 »
Dear Yosh,

Thank you for your critics. I can totaly understand your frustration from a player and admin perspective. With the shrinking WC3CL-Community we had two major tasks to deal with: completing everyday work with an also very inactive Staff-Team and internationalising the website and procedures.

I know the last update of the rules was back in 2016 (http://www.wc3cl.de/index.php?topic=63019.0). But actually we believe that we have a very stable rulebook, that worked pretty well in the past and with the change one year ago we adressed a lot of actual problems, what worked pretty well for a while. The big problem we have this Season is, that we don't have the capabilites to push these rules through.

I know it is still hard for international teams because our rulebook is in german. We have certain believes how a league should run imprinted in those rules. We believe that a league should have a playday and still give you the opportunity to postpone most of the games by little effort. We believe that most of us Hobby players don't have priority one on the game and we want to give you the best opportunity to safe your time for the fun of playing, not waiting or having tons of stuff to organise. Sadly with this - if players don't respect the free time of others - people force defwins based on our rules and this sometimes can go that massive, that a good team can't reach the Playoffs. But we strongly believe that it is more important to safe the rights and time of every individual player that sticks to our rules, than helping the best playing team with their poor housekeeping. Every defwin we decide on is a Support ticket of a team that sees a violation in their rights. We don't just randomly charge clanwars by fun or sympathy to a team.

But actually I'm not interested in holding lectures about the spirit of our rules and ignore the underlying critics and problems of this league. We surely see that and we are working on better solutions. Here is what I can announce and promise you for the upcomming Season:

1st) We will have a fully updated and reworked rulebook in the PDF and on ENGLISH(!!!)

2nd) We will provide a better Support System, making it easier to write a Supportticket for the players and easier plus faster for us to elaborate the tickets

3rd) We will push the rules through again and also provide you with the right paragraphs our decisions are based on


For any critics feel free to contact us at any time.

Best wishes

Changer
WC3CL Head of Support


PS: If you want to have a Statement for a decision, please contact the Support on the formal way. The community forum is not the place to answer such questions.




« Letzte Änderung: 22.11.2017, 02:14:59 von Changer »

Offline Yosh

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Antw:Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?
« Antwort #18 am: 22.11.2017, 14:41:35 »
Oh you have NO idea how frustrating it has been to manage a team that actually cares to do the right thing all the time in this league since it is like fighting an up hill battle all the time.  The "defwin whores" over the seasons have been quite creative over the years and if you want to talk about respecting the time of the players that play this league then please tell me why a majority of the times that there are defwins or situations the scenario is something along the lines of: ownu shows up to the cw on the regularly scheduled date. the opponent fails to get it played due to various reasons (shit happens... we get that) so they ask for it to be pp'd after we wait 4 hours (so far so good).  then due to scheduling issues during the week where opponents give unreasonable dates like wed 9-12 cet when we say things like every day at 18 cet or better yet, radio silence from the opponent while we wait for them to give a date we either have action taken against us or the defwin goes to the opponent simply because we were too flexible and accommodating. it is like the concept of "the team that doesnt show up is on the hook for the loss" is lost on the people that have been interpreting the rules for this league.  Conversely, if situations like that happen you can't just make it easy for players to refuse to play just because they want the defwin.  It is a juggling act that has to be taken on a case by case basis.  The points that we have lost over the years isn't as big of an issue as losing the opportunity to play proper matches vs the good teams of this league.  For a while now the only entertainment that we get from this league is playing vs fs and seeing how every season you see the teams with the most defwins being among the highest ranked.  The higher that defwins elevate them the more that they act like vultures because they realize that they can get high ranked without ever playing a match.  Low risk, high reward.

Also regarding the statement for the decision, would it not make sense to just provide it to me directly as a part of the support ticket that was originally opened up?  Do I really need to open up a support ticket to get an answer for my support ticket?  I feel like this statement needs an xzibit meme.

P.S. I highly recommend that you look into creating explicit rules/examples regarding "known" bugs that should not be allowed in matches because this is apparently a fan favorite and cannot be assumed to be banned... -___-
https://warcraft3.info/article/xiaokk-dragon-tamer

I will be doing the same in w3arena for the next ladder reset while of course having the default catch all for new/forgotten things that come up.
« Letzte Änderung: 22.11.2017, 14:46:14 von Yosh »

Offline Logan

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Antw:Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?
« Antwort #19 am: 23.11.2017, 17:47:00 »
Regarding your PS: As far as i know the dragon pulling on TM is still forbidden (bug exploit) and is handled like cheating since 10y when i was an admin.

Offline Yosh

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Antw:Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?
« Antwort #20 am: 30.11.2017, 20:37:34 »
Be that as it may, it is not explicitly stated in the rules and a much larger and popular event not only allows dragon pulling but praised such "ingenuity". This is the largest and most competitive region that plays wc3 in recent times that we are talking about so we can't simply assume that this should be handled by unspoken / implicit rules.

Also I am having a much larger conversation with the people that run cups since I would like w3a's fair play rules to mirror the events that run through out the year as much as possible where it makes sense and there are valid arguments for allowing dragon pulling just because it opens up Pandora's box when it comes to what is or isn't allowed even more so for the currently banned things like zepplin staff, glitching into bases, etc.

Offline Logan

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Antw:Balnas Bretterbude: WC3CL is rigged?
« Antwort #21 am: 01.12.2017, 08:33:45 »
You can find the rule under point 6.5 #1. Its 100% that its not allowed (still). If it happened to you i hope that you saved the replay, feel free to send it with a short description to the support.